Moss and Owens

    I saw a good piece by Jim Trotter on SI.com about Randy Moss. Jim said he wouldn’t give Randy Moss an MVP vote because of how he’s given half-effort for his teams in the past. Read the piece, interesting take.

The things I was thinking about off this:

-Should you factor in behavior if you are voting for someone for MVP…Hall of Fame…etc?

-And one other thing. Moss and Terrell Owens are both having great seasons and have to be looked at as future Hall of Famers. So, if you had one vote and had to pick…Moss or T.O…who and why?

18 Responses

  1. I vote neither. When I picture of a hall-of-famer, I think of players that are not only athletically skilled, but those who conduct themselves professionally both on and off the field.

    Temper tantrums and half-assed efforts due to boredom are behaviors unbecoming a hall of fame inductee IMO. We should not reward their bad behavior.

    I squirt a water bottle on the ballot!

  2. I don’t factor behavior in when it comes to HOF. I suppose you could argue that behavior can contribute or detract from someone’s team value when considering them for MVP.

    If you told me that Moss / Owens’ careers were going to end today (with neither winning a championship), I’d vote for TO. He went to a championship, and he played an integral role. Moss didn’t go.

    TO has made his QBs better wherever he’s gone. Moss didn’t do that in OAK. His stint in Oakland is what hurts him relative to TO, in my book.

    Had Moss not resuscitated himself this year in NE, he might not have made it. No matter how much talent he has. But they’ll both get in.

    Erik

  3. We all know that both these guys have had their bad times. So if you look at the numbers, not looking past destructive behavior, I’m going to slightly give T.O. the vote over Moss. If both of their careers ended today, T.O. would have more receptions (118 more), yards (1,013 more), and touchdowns (10 more).

    But beyond stats, and still disregarding behavior, Moss is faster, has better hands, and can jump higher. T.O. runs better routes, is maybe the best ever after the catch, is a better blocker, and he’s more versatile. Both excellent receivers and Moss could end up with better stats when all is said and done (Moss is 30 yrs old and T.O. is 34 yrs old). And Moss has the luxury of playing for Brady for a while.

  4. I would like to say that athletes of this ilk would be excluded from the HOF but they are not. As such, both will be in eventually. Moss gets my vote over Owens but that is like winning an ugly contest as they are both wankers. However, if being an ass was a crime Bonds would have been in jail long before Balco.

  5. “Physical Talents” great point and when an athlete gets physically injured there are all types of specialists to understand and fix the problem.

    When the mental game (behavior) breaks-down we do everything short of nailing these athletes to the cross.

    * sports media

  6. When voters go to vote, they will remember the spectacular plays Moss has had over his career and those plays will stay in their minds, and he’ll probably get the nod over Owens first.

  7. talent wise, they both need to go in. I would say Moss right now though (since I’m a Pats Homer). but to make a case for Moss, he is the lesser of two evils. quitting individually is better than destroying a team

  8. The only question is, what does the HOF dictate as requirements for admission? That’s the interesting question, not whether or not “I” would put them in. If the HOF did require certain behavioral guidelines, that would be interesting. After all, how much worse are T.O. or Moss than past stars would have been, had they had this attention and money passed their way?

    I like to remember stars of the past in a heroic way, but I wonder how much of that is permitted by the lack of access that existed at the time. Any number of past NFL stars might have done sit-ups in their driveway, if a news crew was willing to film it, or destroyed a team, if their egos had been pumped up by the glory given to them.

    None of this excuses their behavior, but it does point out the obvious: everyone is human, and I would bet that many of those same voters have a T.O. lurking inside of them- just without the abs.

  9. Just like Tommy John should be in the Baseball HOF for having an entire surgery named after him so should TO for getting a 15 yard penalty because of his celebrations. Plus as stated above he has more receptions, TD’s, and yards than Moss. The only drawback is that he’s 4 years older than Moss. But TO get’s my vote none-the-less!

  10. Personally, I tend to root against both of them. They both epitomize what I would never want on my team. However, I think Moss is the answer over Tantrum Owens. Do they allow you in the HOF for leading the league in dropped passes?

    Moss may or may not give 100% effort on all plays, but he’s clearly a superior talent to Mr. Tantrum.

  11. I would take Moss over Owens any day. I Owens would have had the type of game Moss had against Philadelphia, we would still be hearing about it. Moss typically does his “talking” on the field whereas Owens lets you know before after and during the game how “great” he is. Moss takes alot of heat for taking plays off and quiting in Oakland, but who didn’t quit in Oakland. Also, watch around the league. Alot of players are just standing around during plays. But not many have ruined three franchises in three years and the reputation of a Hall of Fame coach.

  12. Definitely behavior should be taken into account when voting for the MVP and the Hall of Fame. I look at past MVP winners in baseball such as Terry Pendleton and Barry Larkin as an example. They didn’t have the best stats in the league the years they won, but they were both vital to their teams in regards to their leadership. If positive behavior is considered when voting for these awards, why shouldn’t bad behavior be considered as well?

    (Ironically, I don’t think behavior should be considered this year for either Owens or Moss. They’ve both been excellent teamates this year)

  13. hey dan, great show. the gary miller tape was by far the funniest thing i have heard. please if you can, post it on your website. its almost as funny as the charlie steiner tape they play on SC when hes laughing for no reason. cant wait for when you get involved with Sports Illustrated.

  14. While I think both are exceptional players, I would vote for Moss for MVP this year before I would vote for Owens. I just feel his impact has been greater on his team.

    As far as the Hall-of-Fame goes, I do believe behavior should play a part… but not nearly the part that on-the-field accomplishments should. That being said, at this point in their careers I don’t think I’d vote either one into the Hall-of-Fame.

    Not counting 2007, Terrell Owens has played 11 seasons in the NFL… he’s only played a full 16 game schedule in 5 of those seasons, and 3 of those full seasons were his first three years in the league when he didn’t exhibit the same productivity that he would later. I don’t think I could vote a guy into the Hall that could only finish a complete season in less than half the years he played.

    Moss’s numbers are much more solid, but I believe even he needs another 2 productive years after this one before I’d vote him into the Hall-of-Fame.

    Great topic, Dan!

  15. Based on sheer numbers, both players will easily qualify against their peers who are already enshrined.

    But did either Moss or Owens sustain dominance in their respective position over a decade or more? This is the litmus test for a bonafide candidate FOR ANY Hall of Fame. Did they sustain excellence and dominance at their position for a prolonged period? Neither were Gayle Sayers type game-changing, era-defining performers. Gayle Sayers was Barry Sanders…albeit 35 years before Sanders took the field. Jerry Rice, Paul Horning, Fred Bilitnikoff, and Don Hutson were all in their own right era-defining performers who changed their positions and changed the game — like Sayers, Jim Brown, and others who come around once a generation.

    The answer is no. Neither Moss or Ownes were dominant for a decade of sustained excellence.

    Both are superb players…when they want to play.
    Both have superior skills in an offensively skilled position…when they want to play.
    Both have been on decent teams…when they want to play as teammates on those teams.

    Unfortunately, we ass fans and critics have entered the modern day tunnel of media worship of “our star performers” that has little if anything to do with actual performance. From Sharpie markers in the end-zone to celebrations at mid-field, we pedestalize actions rather than critical on field performance. Both Moss and Owens had better sustain themselves another 5-7 years at league dominance in their positions for there to be any consideration of honor in Canton. A SB title or two might stir the drink nicely as well.

  16. Both MVP and HOF voting should be based on what the player does on the field. Why are we and the media so wrapped up in these player’s personalities? I don’t care what they do or say as long as my team wins. When their on the field preformance starts going down, replace them.

  17. Factor in behavior, yes.

    Sometimes I don’t play the hypotheticals (pick one type of approach), unless it’s towards fantasy football/baseball games, or maybe the “..one girl on a deserted island..”.

    I feel neither Moss or T.O. are Hall of Famers at this point in their career; they’re behavior says otherwise to me. Three to five years with no on field/off field interuptions…the “what have you done for me lately” theory will take place.

    The two will have great stats…and people won’t remember the distractions these players caused…just the w’s they brought to the table. And the 2 wr’s will be voted in. I believe the public “forgets” (not necessarily “forgives”) easily.

    And when they are..we can relate the votes to the BCS system…and ask did we “get it right”?

    Take Care,

    Kirk

  18. I’d have to vote T.O. over Moss. T.O. may have talked and been disruptive with the media, but when he hit the field he always goes all out. Plus, every single QB’s stats go UP with him on the team.

    Of course, this is all just saying if we had to vote right NOW.

    If the Pats get their undefeated season, then that will be at least one accomplishment that Moss actually helped. It might give him a slight nudge. But as of today, T.O. would have my vote.

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